How to Balance Building & Buying Companies & Audience Building on Twitter

Colin and Brent discuss whether they should restart an earlier project, balancing internal and external work, and audience building on Twitter.

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[00:00:00] Colin Keeley: Hello. Hello, and welcome back. This is Colin Keeley here

[00:00:03] Brent Sanders: and I'm Brent

[00:00:04] Colin Keeley: Sanders. We are two guys buying a building wonderful internet companies.

[00:00:08] Brent Sanders: That's right. And this week we are. Really having a blast from the past, we started this podcast before we rebranded it, under the premise that we were going to build in public around a startup that we had kicked off called avocado audio and avocado was a great way to consume audio courses online.

So it was a tool for creators. You could sign up. We had, an iPhone and Android app, right? We had a platform mobile app that you could use to. As a way to listen on the go and then COVID happened and people really, weren't not on the go for a while. So we had quickly pivot, but in short, we, ran into the problems that we talked about a lot on this podcast, which is finding product market fit, which drove us to acquiring, our first two companies, which we've done over the last year.

But we decided to remove. The discussion and we're having this discussion live. This is not something, Colin, you've sent over a couple of slacks because you monitor the avocado email. And it sounds like we've had a resurgence of demand due to SEO. Like we kept the website up, but I took the tech stack down.

We were paying for it. It was like a couple hundred bucks a month. We were hosting audio files. We decided to shutter it. I don't know, a year ago, something like that.

[00:01:25] Colin Keeley: Yeah. I don't know if it's a year ago, something like that. But the blog posts are still up. So we invested in a good number of blog posts.

I'm like, how do you create an audio course? How do you turn a ebook into an audio book and all this different stuff? And Google has decided that they really love it. So they've been throwing a bunch of these kind of audio course or audio book creators to us. And these people seem interested and they're clicking through, and that everything's broken outside of like the marketing landing page.

And like every other day now I'm getting people reaching out saying, Hey, I'm trying to use this. It's not working. It's kinda just showing like the power of distribution, like your product is whatever, but if you've got people coming to your door saying, I want to give you money. That's something that's maybe worth revisiting, even though we're not creators anymore.

We're acquisition, people, but

[00:02:12] Brent Sanders: yeah, so like the code still there, we could push the server back up. The iPhone and Android apps, or I'm not going through that. I don't want it. Just the submission process alone is enough to repel me. But, we could consider, it really wouldn't be a lot to just, I think the service still there it's just turned off.

Like it's a Heroku instance, so it's just free right now. It's on the lowest tier, But yeah, we could do it, but I'm curious, what is the feedback then people are trying to click through because where we ended and where I think we maybe took a misstep, was like, we first built this iOS and Android app released it.

You can listen on the, go to these audio courses. You can have a subscription, which was the first idea, but then we pivoted that to be more of, you can just buy courses directly from creators, basically make shopify for audio courses and also have the iPhone component to it. It's a DRM, right?

Like we had this idea that sure. It's on the go, but it's also a way that you can manage control over, if if somebody's paying or not paying for audio content. And we I think. Split our market there. Like we split our focus and we had pivoted to this sort of like Gumroad for audio let's use that Gumroad for audio courses.

And we never got any purchases. We had a couple of really good, we got, we did have some revenue, right? We had some revenue from, what was it like a corporate. Like wellness course, that was an audio based course. And they ended up, I think the next year I ended up going with podia or something along those lines where it was.

They had the demand for video. They had the demand for other media and it was why just audio? So that was the kind of where we left things. And I think the main point of failure was we never really saw any transactions from people would set up their storefronts, but no one would buy their shit.

So it was like, we need to then help them market somehow or help them. And I could've sworn there was something wrong with the system. We tested it. We did see a transaction to come through, but it just wasn't enough for people to, I think, get value. Yeah, where

[00:04:17] Colin Keeley: we kinda left off was we were seeing actually a lot of content be uploaded like for sale, and then the transactions weren't going through.

And what I wanted to do was be like, Hey, we'll host your content. We'll have this nice storefront for you, but you have to pay us every month. More like Shopify or Gumroad actually shifted their business model, but more like Shopify. Yeah. And we never finished building that portion out.

I think that Hey, we'll take your credit card upfront. You get a 15 day free trial or whatever. So that is maybe the outstanding thing that was missing and then I've used, so I've this course NDP, I've used all the different platforms. Gumroad, my mountain teachable. Now I've tried podia in the past and there's just a lot of features.

If you want to become a better and better e-commerce product, there's a lot of stuff to build. And I think that's what we started discover is it's going to be, never-ending investing in development.

[00:05:08] Brent Sanders: Yeah, and we weren't seeing the conversions and that was our metrics. So it's if, how do we, I'm trying to remember how we were trying to, I don't think we were, as you said, I don't think we were charging for people to come on and host their content.

It was, we were taking a spiff off of they're taking a commission off of the purchases. So we were like, and then I think we would take less if you sign up for a higher tier. I think that might've been kind of part of it. I guess one of the questions to ask, both of ourselves and I'll pose it to you first was like, what would it take for us to spin this back up?

[00:05:41] Colin Keeley: What would it take and what parts, like what would it take?

[00:05:46] Brent Sanders: Yeah. What would it take from like a demand perspective? What would you need to see here? Like in order to get. Spend time on this. Again, given we have two other businesses that have profit that, are way farther along what would it take to revisit going back to an early stage?

Start from nothing. I guess not start from nothing, but start from a prototype.

[00:06:05] Colin Keeley: So just generalized versus like avocado specifically. I think it would make sense for us to spin up. You have services that are something we already have to build into. And then you just opening it up to external clients.

And so the ones that kind of stand out to me is I'm doing a lot of acquisition work. I have people working on it for like outbound emails or cold emails. And so to turn that lever and open that up to. External clients, because we basically have internal clients is not that much work or like downline.

I could see as well, as we hire more and more people overseas, you can basically have like a placement agency for hiring people in the Philippines because we're going to be doing that ourselves. We're going to be paying someone else to do it. Like it wouldn't be that much work to, switch it on to external clients as well.

[00:06:54] Brent Sanders: Yeah. I dunno as I think about that question. Reflecting it back to myself. It's I would need to see some amount of almost like pre established demand of Hey, in these emails, you're getting every other day asking me, would you pay 50 bucks a month? Would you pay 20 bucks a month?

Would you pay, whatever that is. And, seeing if there's demand there, just for the sake of, putting something up, allowing people to. Host their courses again, because we did write the code. It's already, still there, and it's not going to take a ton to, to put it back up again, the setting that the mobile apps aside, but I don't see any real efficiency with anything else we're doing now.

Like I, I think it's a distraction. I think it's has nothing to do with B2B SAS. Maybe not nothing, but it's pretty far from our like core domain and in focus, it's also. A cashflow business, right? Is this is not something where the at least, based on what I'm seeing from the demand, it's not like we have hundreds of people that are trying to pay us cash.

It's like people that would be interested in having it and what they'd pay is unclear. So it does seem like it wouldn't be, the same as. Charging people, we're not charging a thousand dollars a month per person, or $3,000 a month per person. This is like expected to be almost free in my census is an under $50 an hour or $50 a month product.

[00:08:19] Colin Keeley: Yeah, I would say probably 50. Ish on average, and then you'd have a hundred dollars here and maybe you could do like a premium $500 tier for the coaches or something. You'd have to stratify your customer base somehow. But that's fair. What's like success look like here. I think there's a bunch of these kind of audio selling products, I I don't know, a corporate podcast or something.

And that's just, it's a tough space to be in as well. I don't think many of them get beyond like a hundred K ARR. So is that worthwhile for all the work we're going to put in and probably not. I think that's a good point.

[00:08:53] Brent Sanders: The features were like the hosting part of it was easy. The, giving people a place to transact was pretty straightforward.

The one thing that I go back to that I recall that. Slapped R at least I really bumped my head against was, we partnered with Stripe for payments. So we were using Stripe connect and, international publishers. There was a lot of interest from people outside of the U S and that made it difficult, like to use Stripe connect because it is currently, and I know that they do support international transactions, they do support, but a lot of the folks that were coming to us.

Based there. So clearing payments, I remember we were going to have to do a lot of it, like manually. We're going to, if you recall, there was a handful of stuff where we couldn't really do, the transactions as we wanted. And by the way, this was so we could take a cut of purchases. But if we're rethinking this to drop certain parts of this, Hey, we don't need to do the Gumroad part of it.

We only just need to do the hosting and let them figure out the payment piece and give people a way to just paywall. I think that might be much easier in a much smaller lift and we can just move the product in that direction with minimal work and launch it back up. Because that part of it, as you said, we had a ton of people that just signed up and uploaded all their content.

And then we were like, what the hell are they doing with this? They're not transacting. They may be giving it away for free. I don't recall if we had a way to do that, but, if we took a credit card upfront, that might be the, I'd say if like we did one thing that should be, it is like just take payment upfront and requires some amount of, of upfront payment in some amount of monthly fee to just even use it at all and see if we get the same demand.

[00:10:31] Colin Keeley: Yeah. Wonder if you could punt on all the e-commerce stuff, which is just a lot of work in it. I forgot. Yeah. People were demanding like Payoneer, I think is like the international Stripe that people wanted. And that was like a big lift or PayPal was another option. I wonder if you could punt all that and just be a Shopify plugin and we already have the players and stuff, and then people just pay us for the ability to do that.


[00:10:55] Brent Sanders: a really good idea that makes a ton of sense. Cause then it's deal with someone else, just be, but, there was no way to upload audio into Shopify. So you just basically have, a way to purchase a skew. And then you use us for the parts that we were good at, which was uploading audio.

We did do a good job. Converting all the different types of audio. Like we built a nice little pipeline that I spent some time on that and was real proud of the work. And then having just like a nice usable mobile player in the web, I think when it comes to that, like this is like this buy versus build or in this case, like partner versus.

Decision that this is actually a good way to mitigate some of the risk of having to build a bunch like, and that would be a good way cause Shopify. Now, if your revenue is under a million, the cut is pretty small or smaller.

[00:11:42] Colin Keeley: I think at zero, I think they knocked it down to zero.

[00:11:45] Brent Sanders: Wow. So that's a good incentive.

That's actually a really good idea. I think that makes a ton of sense for us.

[00:11:51] Colin Keeley: Yeah. The other side of it is. Is this the sunk cost fallacy. Like we've plowed a good amount of time into it. And we're just trying so hard to salvage that work. But if we were like looking at it with fresh eyes, is it worth it?

Should we be starting anything really? Or is it just onto the next thing, forget about the past.

[00:12:10] Brent Sanders: So the thing that I think about sometimes the way that I think this can work is when, and this is going back to what we doing in shared services at the venture studio of builders was, or at least the idea behind it before even joining that group.

Was like, you have a group of developers that are doing external work and internal work, and you can peel people off to, you could, if you could throw a developer at this one week a month, like they could get it back up, move the needle enough to like incrementally test these things where it's like, Hey, we're still in a prototype phase.

We're still, we're not putting full-time resources into it. And that one week a month is generally when you have. Resources that are working on margin. Like you generally get that, right? If you have external customers that are using you as an agency. And so this is where I keep coming back to man, it would be nice to be able to have a cash flowing entity that gives you that luxury to R and D things, without having to fund it yourself necessarily, or go and get, secure outside funding.

And I think that de-risks a lot of things. So that's where my mind has been on this as well as our existing portfolio, right? It's like we have the two portfolio companies, again, much further along they're generating revenue. Can we using the resources that are working between those two? Can you build a, an agency or internal network that, feeds.

And I think that is possible. That's at least the mindset I've been really thinking about a lot over the last two weeks is I think of the analogy of skiing, right? You take turns side to side to side, and this is from the frame that we have not raised any external capital. And how we think about it is in a negative way.

Like we're not so sure. That's the right move for us, just because of the economics around it at our scale. And so I think about, one turn into cashflow, one turn into sort of leverage and investment one turn into cashflow, winter, in, in, as a way to balance your way to get down the mountain.

So yeah, that's my analogy or mindset. That's my mantra lately. So what

[00:14:11] Colin Keeley: would that look like? What would success look like in three months or six months taking that approach to you?

[00:14:15] Brent Sanders: What does it look like at the end is you have a bench, right? You have development resource, and now I need to film or just like production resources, whether they're writers that developers or creatives, people that, build product, move the needle on, on features or marketing or whatever on growth.

But those people are essentially getting paid for by external. And then spending excess, you're essentially, instead of pocketing the margin from their work, you're putting that into, adding value to your businesses, adding value to your portfolio. So the external work is the thing that's really funding it.

The downside with, sure. You could just convert that to cash from an investor. The downside on that scenario is you give up your economics and this way we don't give up economics, what we do give up is some throughput, like things are gonna move slower, I think, potentially depending on how scale happens.

But I think there's a balance here that I've been able to reach at least on the development and design and sort of product services when having an agent. That you can instead of having the team only focused on that external revenue generation margin generation, you can balance it in.

They can actually do more of a, that value goes into your portfolio, which I think would have a much more amplified effect downstream, right? It's like you invest in the business and then you can sell it for a much higher, multiple than throwing that margin in your pocket and paying taxes on it at the time.

[00:15:48] Colin Keeley: It's basically turning cashflow and assets instead of just putting in your pocket.

[00:15:52] Brent Sanders: Yeah, exactly. And I think we're in a unique position to do it because admittedly, I'm not doing really any external work right now and I haven't for several years. And so that's the part that I'm, I need to put it out there that I'm open to doing that.

And then, also building that bench out, which I have been doing, like the work that I do. Outside of the portfolio is like building teams, putting teams together. So that's an easy proposition for myself. And I think for yourself, as well as these are things that you do day to day on our businesses.

What's the difference. If you take on an external person to do it and charge them cash instead of, do it for an internal company.

[00:16:34] Colin Keeley: Yeah.

I guess where do you fall on avocado? Do you think it's worth investing and I don't know what it takes to spin up a Shopify app. I think their approval is something,

[00:16:43] Brent Sanders: I don't want to spend any time on it, to be honest. If I had a developer that would give me a.

I point them in the right direction. Give, put some time to getting them there. I think it's too fuzzy. I think we should ask people clearly that are reaching out, ask them if they would pay 20 bucks a month for hosting their content. And if there is real commitment there, I think would be interesting, but I'm a little burned out on it.

Just, there really has been a lot of time put into that and these smaller, I just don't think that the dollar size of the customers is worth the time that goes into it. The hour, the hours that go into it, the long-term value, I don't think is really there. Cause it, because it's so early, like we don't really have competence.

We can keep customers. Maybe we can get some, but the size of the customer base and the long-term value based on the product we currently have and, or could get too quickly. I don't think it's, I don't think it's worth it until we have excess bandwidth to invest into things like.

[00:17:45] Colin Keeley: Yeah, I would fall in a similar spot.

I think it's just a tough market and I don't know of any audio companies that have really done well. I think you're selling to people that don't really have money and they're hoping they're going to make money from this and maybe it doesn't work out. So that's like a tough group to charge 50 to a hundred dollars

[00:18:00] Brent Sanders: a month.

Yeah, I would fully agree with.

[00:18:03] Colin Keeley: Cool. What else is going on in your world? Any other updates I've seen? You've been active on Twitter.

[00:18:09] Brent Sanders: Yeah. I'm trying to tweet again. I've been thinking of just making fun of your tweets as my Twitter strategy, because I think it would help you, it would help you cause you'd at least have somebody, at least one person engaging.

Cause yeah, I don't know if you're still in the whole, the Twitter hole. They don't like showing your tweets to people, but. Yeah. I, we keep talking about this week of it strikes me, I've actually been spending a lot of time this week, just posting stupid shit off the cuff, but I've been doing work that I'm waiting for things to build.

Like I'm running a code base that has to run tests in it. It can take 10, 15 minutes sometimes. So I'm idle in between and I'll like balance between a couple of things, but I do find myself. From time to time. But yeah, I was thinking of just mocking your tweets or asking questions of you, dumb questions of your tweets.

Cause you're pretty consistent. You seem like you've got something smart to say on a fairly regular basis. Recently you were talking about, like playbook style stuff. Like here's how you turn a hundred K in revenue to.

[00:19:12] Colin Keeley: Yeah. So I appreciate the engagement. That's a helpful, I think I'm going to like publicly commit somebody to one threat.

And I actually don't think it's that much work. It's more I don't know, distilling what I learned that week down, and spending less time consuming on Twitter and just I dunno, maybe a half hour, an hour, a week, writing something meaningful. And that's everything I've heard is that's how you grow is you ride threads and not these one-off tweets.

So I definitely it's funny how much I'm in the doghouse by taking a couple of months off because I used to like my worst tweet to get, I would say two to 5,000 impressions and now my bad tweets get like a thousand impressions. But it'll come back. That's fine. But I'm going to commit to doing one, one a week building up the audience again, took too much time off.

[00:19:58] Brent Sanders: Yeah, you definitely. Have a persona, right? You have this, a consistent topic that you're talking about, which probably helps. Yeah. I'm not really, nobody engages my useless blabbering, but I have been, I do find the threads. Like I, I feel like there's a way to get. Like genuine or authentic content out there.

That is not a threat. That's what the one thing actually I've been thinking about is like, everyone has this format. They see it and then they pair  it right. It's like you see, sleep tips or exercise tips, all this, like who the fuck decided Twitter was a place to go get advice.

And by the way, it's the worst place to get advice like these people. You Mo most people are just talking out of their ass. It's somebody tweeted something, it was hilarious. And I'm like, do you believe this person lied on the internet? It's that's all the internet is which.

That's one thing I like about your content is that you're just Hey, here's what I've learned. I'm not saying that, I think some people may look at a tweet like, Hey, here's how you turn a hundred K in a million it's like of MRR. It's you're not saying you did that.

You're just saying, this is, these are the steps that people take in order to do that. And I feel like the thread is one of those things around. Yeah, it has a stigma to it where it's that's, it's just such a unique thing to Twitter. It's normally you would just write more than one, one blob of text, but it's forced because of the character limits.


[00:21:23] Colin Keeley: threads are so popular now because that's what Twitter rewards like, if your goal is to get more people following you, it's you ride threads? It's not one off tweets. So that's what everyone I think is discovered or the last six months. Clearly a formula for this thread header or a thread headline that works.

And it's I spent $2 million in 20 years of life running these 20 tips and you'll read below and that will get you like 5,000 followers. And then everyone writes, just turn 30. Here's my 30 tips for life. Oh, that is very effective. It is ridiculous. And like annoying. But if your goal is building an audience, like that's, what's getting rewarded.

[00:22:03] Brent Sanders: Yeah, I think I'm going to do it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna start, I'm gonna start writing some threads, but like you have to think about what is it that you're an expert in, or what is it that you have value in? And, I'm finding more and more, and also finding on our calls, like with, founders that have children that like, that seems to be my new area of expertise is potty training.

Sleep training, raising children, and then sometimes business and internet shit. But, you focused your messaging. It's like acquisitions, which is, I think a smart thing to do is figure out first, what are you trying to actually talk about? Cause I think that's the thing that I get lost in is I've had this account so long that it's some people don't even know that this is what I do.

Some people, Some people are, I follow because it's like a hobby and it's a group, there's all these different, like groups of followers that I have from different phases of my life. And they're usually people that I actually know in real life. So maybe that's what I'm going to do in the future is start getting serious about, online net.

[00:22:58] Colin Keeley: Yeah, I think picking a niche definitely helps. And that's what I've played around with different ones like the operating manual or micro P I learned pretty quickly. Don't want to do that one micro penis. Is that too many? So acquisition is a nice alternative and also broader, which I kinda liked. But yeah, just narrow in and then I, you don't have to be like an expert.

You don't have to have done a thousand acquisitions. You just have to have done more than the people that you're teaching. And so there's a lot of people out there that have never run the tech side of a company or a startup or something. It's those people are almost more helpful than learning from like Mark Leonard. Who's done like a thousand software acquisitions. It's oh, this is how I manage $5 billion. That's not super helpful. So that the normal people out there,

[00:23:42] Brent Sanders: that's a really good point. That's a really good point. I think that the thing that I would love to talk about more, and this is maybe another topic for the podcast, but it's like the more founders, sellers and also buyers of companies understanding like, How did they deal with day-to-day cash?

Honestly, it weighs on me, I've got, as I talked about, get two kids, we get a wife, we got a mortgage. We've got like big boy expenses. And it's like doing this. I think the question that I always think about, and I think more people think about it than admitted is like, how do you afford that?

Like, how do you actually, no, but really like, how do you do. There's a lot of assumptions, oh, white dude in his forties, he's probably got family money or, he's part of the lucky sperm club or something like that where it's I think people need to open that. It's very personal and it's probably, awkward, but I feel like that's an interesting topic to dive into that.

I would love to talk about it because that is the true crux of, as I look at, like, how do you get into entrepreneurship? Sustain yourself in companies that don't have distributions, like they're not paying your salary, their investments, and they're generally drains at the early stages, or if you're taking money from other people, like the question of what do you take from salary?

If you're, at a startup or in a fund?

Oh, you know what? There is one thing I want to talk about. I got to meet the mayor of Cleveland last week. This guy is awesome. He's 35 years old. Justin bib is his name. Super young for a mayor looks even younger than 35.

And so I'm going to make it my point, because this was his one kind of takeaway. We had asked him like, Hey, what can we do to help sports? Cause keep Cleveland growing and in this is all, to give some background, he was giving a talk about what's going on in Cleveland, what he's trying to do, how we can help private and public partnerships, tech, all these things that he's trying to do.

Cleveland, mid tier city, mid to bottom. I always rag on it, but that was his actually his takeaway. And I always, bash Cleveland. Cause I'm like, yeah. It's w what do I say? It's where all your mildest dreams come true. And it's not generally. Where, what is it? Was it, is it joking Noah?

The bulls expos player.

[00:25:54] Colin Keeley: Yeah.

[00:25:55] Brent Sanders: I love that. And I don't know if you remember. He had a great one where he was doing a press conference and he was ragging on Cleveland. And the, I think they, they asked him like, do you want to take back anything you said about Cleveland? He's do you like it?

Do you like Cleveland? I've never heard anybody say you're going on vacation in the corner of Cleveland. Which was pretty ruthless. So that was funny though, the mayor had all these great talking points, he's working on fixing all these things in the city. He's putting a ton of energy into it, which is awesome to see.

And he's seems like a super smart guy. But he. I don't not Cleveland. If like you're on your zoom meeting. Don't not Cleveland. Just talk it up, just talk it up. So that's, I'm saying it's getting nice here. I'm going to go kayaking lake Erie. I'm going to go hiking in the Metro parks and I am happy here.

I gotta say like it is when the weather is nice. It is a phenomenal place. I definitely get outside in the woods or out in water, way more than I did in Chicago.

[00:26:48] Colin Keeley: Yeah. That's what people maybe don't appreciate. Cleveland actually has water. I never think of it that way, but you mentioned oh, it's going down to the beach to write something or take a phone call.

And I feel like you got to talk that part of more.

[00:26:59] Brent Sanders: Yeah. Then there's always the joke that the water lit on fire. The burning river. I don't know if you know that whole deal, but, the biggest thing that's weird about Cleveland and I've just say it is like, In the middle of the day. So it's a, there's an east side, there's a west side and in the middle is a big fucking steel mill.

And it's still, it looks like mortar. It's not an eyesore because it's shit. That's where it's the steel yards. That's where people work. It's a functioning steel yard. It's an industrial city still. And it's one of the last ones. I feel like Austin and all these other, Nashville, these other cities, they're not really industrial places like they, they have other things that have texture has taken over, but, and yeah, we've got skyscrapers, but you can't get away from the fucking steel mill it's there. And it's in your face, it doesn't stink or anything. It's, but it's an eyesore. So we do get this bad rap, but they've, a lot of the environmental stuff has been remediated.

So it does have this history, but love it. Nonetheless, it's been, actually a great place to. Be an entrepreneur, to be honest, it doesn't really matter where you are and sure. I'm, if I could pick anywhere, maybe it'd be Thailand or something who knows, but if you're in the U S and you want to be in a city, have, the, all the stuff that goes along with it, it's a really nice place.

I've been able to find a strong balance and, I can't deny, I have kids. So it's it's a great place to raise kids. That's been huge for me, which is like also proximity of family. That's not gonna apply to everybody, but it's a pretty sweet place. And the people that are like unique, they're very, I don't know how what's the best way to put it.

They're just not that they're super authentic. There's no bullshit here. There's no, you can really talk to anybody. Anybody is very friendly and I guess it's been west. That's what you get.

[00:28:36] Colin Keeley: So in other news, we're looking for podcast sponsors and if Cleveland, the city of Cleveland is in the market that was here free a free first pitch.


[00:28:46] Brent Sanders: I would tell you, the mayor was like, he's going out to Silicon valley trying to get companies out here. He's you guys want to propose something, come down to city hall. Talk to me. I will. Do it he's like we are open city is open for business now giving out free checks to, podcasts. Probably not, but I loved his attitude.

When it comes to trying to get, the development, people to build things that make innovations, rebates, the companies here, like they want to make it happen. They want to talk about it versus, other cities where it's not so much. What Miami is blown up for crypto.

Curious to see how that goes. No reflection on web three or crypto. It just seems eventually everyone's going to move back to New York.

[00:29:25] Colin Keeley: I don't know. I feel like long-term, it's the low tax cities, like the next 10, 20 years. It's the Liberty states. They call them taxes, Florida. I think that's an enduring trend.

I'm not sure it's a temporary one.

[00:29:40] Brent Sanders: Yeah. Yeah, generally anywhere you can, carry a gun and not pay taxes. It's American.

[00:29:47] Colin Keeley: Yeah, here you go. This is getting to be a long one. Eh, any final thoughts here? You get to go here.

[00:29:52] Brent Sanders: No, I hope you edit it down. This'll be pretty awful podcast as is. Thanks for listening everybody.

Thanks for listening. This ramble, we'll be more focused in the future. Why don't we promise our audience next podcast we'll have a guest on somebody. Interesting. Somebody, drive the conversations away from the same old shit. Cleveland

[00:30:11] Colin Keeley: you're away from Cleveland. Yeah.

[00:30:12] Brent Sanders: Okay. Maybe we'll ask the mayor to come on.

[00:30:15] Colin Keeley: Yeah, there you go. Take care. Bye-bye.

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